The 'E' word. Embezzlement. A larger number of practices are victim to this than you might think. Casey and Jarrod walk through what you should do if you suspect a staff member of stealing.
Announcer:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Millionaire Dentist Podcast, brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. On this podcast, we break down the world of dentistry finances, and business practices to help you become the millionaire dentist you deserve to be. Please be advised, we do speak with an honest tongue and may not be safe for work.
Casey Hiers:
Hello and welcome. This is Casey Hiers, back at the Millionaire Dentist Podcast in studio with co-host, Jarrod Bridgeman.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Casey, hey, how are you? Hey, my whole name. Thank you. Thank you.
Casey Hiers:
Looking good, man. Pocket Square.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
Got clients in from the East coast today.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right. You're looking pretty good too. You got a nice little orange tie on. We're both wearing a gray suit.
Casey Hiers:
I'm like a creamsicle and a face for radio, so thank God we're doing a podcast with no video.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Creamsicle.
Casey Hiers:
Hey, in this environment of inflation and joblessness and just despair, what's a good way for practice owners, staff, to maybe have more money at home?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
If the dentist isn't looking at the books all that often, then I'm pretty sure you can probably skim right off the top there, right?
Casey Hiers:
Just steal it.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right.
Casey Hiers:
Just steal that money. That's right. You walked right into it.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yes.
Casey Hiers:
We're not promoting for-
Jarrod Bridgeman:
No.
Casey Hiers:
Dental staffs to steal or skim, but we're certainly going to jump into that topic today.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right.
Casey Hiers:
The E word.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
You can call it embezzlement.
Casey Hiers:
Embezzlement.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Or it's a type of fraud as well.
Casey Hiers:
Yeah.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. So let me ask you, Casey, you're out there shaking babies and holding hands and all that kind of stuff. We had, years and years and years ago, had talked about embezzlement and fraud and stuff like that before. Is this still a prevalent issue today?
Casey Hiers:
I would say more so, given the current climate of the economy. When some people get more desperate or have fewer options, do the right thing or feed your family. I mean, that's one of those questions you can get into ethics, integrity, morality, all those things. What do you do? But yeah, I think in today's current climate, absolutely. It's something that people should keep their eye on. And here's the other thing, staff right now, staff's hard to come by. So let's say somebody's just a complete idiot and gets caught, in their mind, they might say, well, I can just go get another job because it's so in demand. So yeah, I'd say the today's climate is ripe for fraud and embezzlement.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I mean, really, there's no industry that's safe from this. Back when I was in high school...
Casey Hiers:
I mean, even if you're a thief, your thief partner might steal. Yeah, no.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. Back in high school, I worked at a video store and all of our candy and ice cream was not kept on the books. It was just a wad of cash we kept in a video cassette tape, and...
Casey Hiers:
For our younger listeners, a video store was a place you would go to buy or rent a VHS tape or DVD to watch said movie, ol' man.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Did you know back then, back in the eighties and nineties, one VHS tape for a rental store cost over $100?
Casey Hiers:
No.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's why they charged so much for late fees and stuff. One copy was over $100.
Casey Hiers:
Wow.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's what they charged the video store.
Casey Hiers:
Looking back, that's crazy.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
We can go down that rabbit hole for 40 seconds. What about the things today do you think we're overpaying for because the systems?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
It's weird, man. The only thing that's gotten better and the prices have gone down, it seems to be TVs. Quality gets better and they're cheaper now.
Casey Hiers:
Isn't it weird? If you could have a mechanism to hypnotize the populace, that you might find a way to get it, and everybody's home for a cheap price. Oh, I'm getting in, I'm getting too much in the weeds.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's it. That's it. [inaudible 00:03:38].
Casey Hiers:
All right. Let's pivot back to just the simple fraud and embezzlement, not a...
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. So Casey, let me ask you, if you're the owner, you're the practice owner and you suspect that something is happening, what are some things that we should look at doing to get that ball rolling?
Casey Hiers:
You should freak out, break stuff. Put the person you think might be doing it in a headlock and alert everybody. No, that's all the things you shouldn't do.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That sounds bad.
Casey Hiers:
No, you shouldn't do that. But let's pick that apart. Number one, you ask, is it still prevalent today? Yeah. I mean, I'd say what, 50%, 60%. Some older statistics said potentially a dentist could be defrauded in their career. It could be one in two.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Wow.
Casey Hiers:
Right?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That have been affected in some way, yeah.
Casey Hiers:
Yeah. And the average loss of like $150,000, that's just the average loss. So a lot of these people aren't just getting the ice cream money that you talked about at the video store. Right? Skimming $5. Typically, greed only grows. And so you're talking 50%, 60% of people could be affected by it over their career to the tune of six figures, $150,000. That's something to be aware of.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's a lot of ice cream right there.
Casey Hiers:
No kidding.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
So in a general kind of way, how do you feel that a practice owner, really anybody who owns a business would feel if they think this is happening?
Casey Hiers:
Well, that's a good question. They suspect something's not right. The more information you gain, I think the life cycle of emotion, right? You're probably pissed off.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.
Casey Hiers:
There's probably some guilt involved, like, gosh, I should have been more aware of this. How long has this been going on?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I should have been paying attention. Right.
Casey Hiers:
So anger and guilt.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Then you've got the feeling of betrayal and distrust because you don't know who that works for you could be doing this.
Casey Hiers:
It's the taste of betrayal. The taste of betrayal.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Which goes down harder than even Bud Light.
Casey Hiers:
Get your A game, brother.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right. That's right.
Casey Hiers:
Well, we'll let the audience interpret that however they want.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right. That's right.
Casey Hiers:
Well, and even fear, I think all those can be common, but there's a strong urge probably to solve the problem immediately. Immediately.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right. Right.
Casey Hiers:
And actually you want to do the opposite of that instinct, to George Costanza. Do the opposite of what you want to do.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
You're going to have missteps. If you're playing off the emotions that you feel, you're probably going to overcompensate and misstep what actually needs to be done in the unfortunate situation where you either think you are or know you are being embezzled from.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right. It's probably not a bad idea too, to get some professional advice in one of these situations as well. You are not a private investigator or a police officer. So having someone who has knowledge of this could be beneficial.
Casey Hiers:
What do you think about just getting some muscle and roughing somebody up to get some answers?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Do you know anybody with muscles?
Casey Hiers:
Not me.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Not me either. Well, yeah, I'm not recommending going out and Nancy Kerrigan anybody either.
Casey Hiers:
Okay. Okay. But in terms of another really old reference.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I know. I got it filled up here today.
Casey Hiers:
Our younger listeners are just going to be Googling, is that? Yeah, they're going to be looking up a lot of stuff.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Doing the Googs.
Casey Hiers:
So you do a good job. I'll be standing somewhere and you sneak up on me like a ninja. I don't even know you're there. Like another Sidler, right? Another Seinfeld.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. That's why I walk on my tiptoes like a cat.
Casey Hiers:
But stealth. Right. Let's get into that. Once you have this information, it doesn't mean that you have to let on, because ultimately you need to be strategic about this and not overreact.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Well, and with everything else, knowledge is power. If you reveal your hand too early, it could bite you.
Casey Hiers:
And normally you're getting a, there's smoke, there's fire, but you might suspect it, but it might not actually be the case.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
It can straight up be an honest mistake.
Casey Hiers:
Well, let's pivot to what we talk about so often. People's data, numbers, are incorrect and incomplete. QuickBooks are behind. Everything's just mistakes riddled everywhere. Sometimes embezzlement would be a better excuse than just how ridiculously incorrect and inaccurate data input is. But that could be the case.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
So yeah, you don't want walk yourself into a situation where you're placing blame on your employees when it was your own bookkeeping mistake.
Casey Hiers:
No. Now's the time to keep your poker face and ultimately take some time to figure out what you need to do. So dentists typically does not know what to look for. A self-guided investigation's probably not going to accomplish a whole lot.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
No.
Casey Hiers:
If you suspect someone you'd prefer they have no idea because then they're just going to destroy evidence and you truly will never know.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right. Right.
Casey Hiers:
And so just playing it cool is a really good first step.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
And it's going to be tough. I mean, not everybody can be Colombo. But listen, I've been watching a lot of Colombo lately, and he always traps him into something, but that's really hard to do.
Casey Hiers:
Well, Magnum PI, that's old with Tom Sellek and new right now too. So just when you're doing a Magnum PI site of sort of investigation.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. Wear a Hawaiian shirt and a mustache.
Casey Hiers:
The Ferrari's pretty dope.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
It's pretty dope.
Casey Hiers:
But yeah, a lot of times, listen, you want to maybe have a conversation with your CPA, with an attorney, maybe even a dental software vendor. There's a lot of places to go that you can gather information to be in a position of power and knowledge, not emotion and reaction.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
If you do happen to come across some evidence with the people you're working with or with yourself, make sure you preserve that evidence. Take screenshots, back it up on hard drives, save it in the cloud. Find ways to show that it's still there. I mean, honestly, it can be very easy, especially in the world of computers and digital situations, to change data numbers or simply delete it.
Casey Hiers:
With all the technology and the passwords, is fraud better or worse than it was pre? I don't know the answer. I'm just thinking about it, right?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
All the, I mean, fraud and embezzlement has been happening forever, and yet we get all this technology and all these passwords and has it improved?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I think the tough part is my experience with people. Sometimes people in this room who can never remember their Zoom password is...
Casey Hiers:
Wait a second. There's no one else in this room.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I know.
Casey Hiers:
You bastard.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
But sometimes, you trust people with your passwords of different things. If that's not your forte, if you're not the one running the books 24/7, you might have an underling to it.
Casey Hiers:
Well, unfortunately, a lot of practices, they promote, have or maybe don't have. But that family culture, that kind of kumbaya thing, and that's a really cool place to be at and to shoot for. That can also give you a false sense of confidence. Shoot, family steal from family. So, that family culture doesn't mean that somebody might not be in a position where stealing from you, the successful dentist, is a lesser evil than, again, random example of feed my family.
One of the other things, and this probably goes to your mind and my mind of let's place some bait. Let's catch them. Right?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
Actually, putting some extra cash somewhere or that's a just don't do it.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
No.
Casey Hiers:
Right? Because as a practice owner, it's probably going to be seen. They're going to see through it. If there really is a perpetrator, a suspect, a perp, right? It's going to be, oh man, they must be on me because this is weird that they did that they did this.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.
Casey Hiers:
Don't change financial protocols. Don't make any big changes. You don't need to go to the police with, I think, and I feel, and I want to just talk to the police to make me feel better. Again, that's probably not going to be the best thing. Here's the big one. The first instinct, confront the suspect.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Just take a swing, start swinging.
Casey Hiers:
Do not confront the suspect.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Do not. That's right.
Casey Hiers:
Yeah. Do not. There's a time when that's appropriate. But success rates of actually getting a confession... Making an accusation, they're probably not just going to say, "Yep, you caught me. Sorry." Right?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
So you need to have a lot of data back up, evidence, things of that nature. And then when you present that evidence with the right people, team and timing, a lot of times they will then give up that, "Yeah, that was me." And then the sob story comes.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I know another thing to not do is to contact your insurance companies right away.
Casey Hiers:
No, they're probably not going to be much help. They'll probably add some more headaches to the thing.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah, for sure.
Casey Hiers:
But there could be a time where you can recoup some of that via insurance, but what are those unintended consequences?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
But yeah, not firing somebody based off of very little or zero evidence is not a great idea. A lot of states have a worker right into their state literature, and you can very easily get sued, especially if you have no evidence to back it up.
Casey Hiers:
Well, and it's good to have checks and balances. Again, our clients don't have to worry about that because our comprehensive team is constantly monitoring everything. And so that's not the case if you have checks and balance. I mean, a lot of this stems from, well, the practice owner, and my boss is so aloof just doing dentistry that I can get away with it. That's a lot of times the starting point.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right. And I know he won't see this number for six more months to a year.
Casey Hiers:
When there's checks and balances or there's an external team that monitors it, there's little chance your going to get away with it. So that's a deterrent in itself.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.
Casey Hiers:
Now some folks, they're so into their QuickBooks and their numbers, and they're always on it, and that's great. They won't get embezzled from. They're also going to burn out and not have a life because they're so involved in it that they're like, nobody will ever embezzle from me because I know everything that happens.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.
Casey Hiers:
I got news for you. If you're a practice-owning dentist and specialist and you're spending hours in QuickBooks and dotting every I and crossing every T, all on your own, that is, boy, you could be producing a lot of dentistry instead of doing that. Have a team that does it, have checks and balances that do it. Absolutely, you want to be involved in it.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Sure. For sure.
Casey Hiers:
You want to be the executive summary level CEO. Not worker bee data input where you know everything.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Casey, where are you going to be here in a couple days where someone can actually ask you some questions about this or any other business side of dentistry?
Casey Hiers:
Was it Biggie or Tupac that said, "I'm going going back back to Cali Cali?" Can you insert that into this or do we have to pay copyrights?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
It'd have to be copyright, but hey, you singing it is fine.
Casey Hiers:
No, that was terrible. Yeah. I used to live out in Southern California for a time, actually going back to the South Bay area. El Segundo, California. Topgolf.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right. That's going to be this Friday. If you have not, you're in the area, and have not registered, please go to fourquadrantsadvisory.com/events and click on the one that says El Segundo.
Casey Hiers:
Yeah, we're recording this a few days prior and we're close to that capacity, so it should be a great crowd.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
If it's already at capacity, by the time you hear this, well, give us a call. Give it to us instead. We'll help you out. And then on June 2nd, we are going to be at the Topgolf in Fishers, outside of Indianapolis, our hometown.
Casey Hiers:
Wait, I don't have to hop on a flight?
Jarrod Bridgeman:
No.
Casey Hiers:
Sweet.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
And I'll be at that one.
Casey Hiers:
Nice.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
I'm pretty stoked about it. Yeah. I'll wear my fancy golf pants. Wait, they actually have those. Shoot, that's meant to be a joke. Well, it's been nice talking to you. As usual, we only got part of the way, sidetracked by conspiracies.
Casey Hiers:
Conspiracies. I'm just floating questions out there. And, Oh, I could just get in so much trouble. I can't say that one. Okay.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.
Casey Hiers:
Yeah, we got to come up with new ones because all the old ones are coming true.
Jarrod Bridgeman:
Anyways, let's wrap this up. Casey, thank you so much. I can't wait to see what we're going to talk about next.
Casey Hiers:
Thanks, pal. Thank you.
Announcer:
That's all the time we have today. Thank you to our guests for their insight and for sharing some really great information. And thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in. The Millionaire Dentist podcast is brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. To see if they might be a good fit for you and your practice, go on over to fourquadrantsadvisory.com and see why year after year they retain over 95% of their clients. Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next time.
