THE MILLIONAIRE DENTIST PODCAST

EPISODE 20 TRANSCRIPTION

Announcer:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Millionaire Dentist Podcast, brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. On this podcast, we break down the world of dentistry, finances, and business practices to help you become the millionaire dentist you deserve to be. Please be advised, we do speak with an honest tongue and may not be safe for work. Now here's your host, Alan Berry.

Alan Berry:

Welcome back to another episode of the Millionaire Dentist Podcast. On today's episode, we will be talking about lease negotiations and the horror stories if you decide to negotiate your lease on your own. To help us do that, we have Senior Consultant from Cirrus Consulting Group, Jas Banga. Before working directly for dentists and doctors, Jas spent many years negotiating on the other side of the table for a large commercial medical real estate group. Today, he shares some of his secrets he has learned along the way. Jas, welcome to the show.

Jas Banga:

Hey, thank you for having me, really appreciate your time, and looking forward to today's podcast.

Alan Berry:

When I was doing research about this topic, I started to think, just looking into it, the first thought that pops into my head is, why would someone pay to negotiate a lease? And I know that sounds short-sighted, so please fill that in for me. Why do you tell prospective clients that they need someone to negotiate on their end?

Jas Banga:

Well, it's interesting. I've worked with doctors all over the country and many of which have either worked with a broker in the past and maybe in some capacity, an attorney, but the reality is dentists are trained in clinical care and operating and procedures on patients and have very little understanding of the nuances when it comes to negotiating a lease. And arguably, the lease agreement is one of the most expensive documents a dentist ever signs.

Jas Banga:

Dentists are unique, they have large investments built into the property, very difficult to pick up and move. So hiring a professional is critical just to understand and to ensure that the doctor is protected throughout their tenancy. You have to understand the dichotomy between a dentist and a landlord. What landlords do everyday is negotiate leases, they are professionals on their end. Every day their goal is to sign tenants up in their property, or ensure that their tenants are paying their bills on time. That's their business and a dentist's business is clinical care.

Alan Berry:

So say you've got a client that comes in and they have the opportunity to buy or to lease. How do you determine what's the best fit for that dentist?

Jas Banga:

So, Alan, it's interesting that you say that, because at least five out of the 10 dentists I speak with on a daily basis question whether they should buy or lease. But it's really a function of where you are in your career. As a new start doctor, two years out as an associate, just getting your first practice started, I would always encourage a doctor in that space to lease, given the significant cost of acquiring good real estate. You have to understand, when you're at the beginning of your career, it's all about building a brand. It's all about building a reputation in the community. Once you've done that, then you can move anywhere in your area.

Jas Banga:

But initially what we recommend, if you're a new start doctor, it is always best to go into an area where there's high traffic flow, high visibility. And to buy commercial real estate in those areas is very expensive. In conjunction with having to build out the practice space. So the issue that typically arises is the fact that it's difficult to get appropriate financing to buy both the property, as well as build out the practice.

Jas Banga:

Now, I think it's wonderful to own real estate, but it's also another job. In addition to running your practice, you have to maintain the building. If there's multiple tenants in the building, let's say a toilet's stuck, or there's a clog, your tenant is going to come to you as a landlord with a plunger and say, "Hey, by the way, I need this toilet fixed." Or you're going to have to hire individuals to manage the property, which is a very expensive endeavor. But again, it's really a function of where you are in your career, the type of reputation you have, the nature of the practice you have, but ultimately it falls down to financing.

Alan Berry:

What about on the other side of a dentist's career? When they're getting closer to, let's say, they know in five years, they're going to be retiring. And as you know, that also means they're going to be transitioning their practice. What type of advice do you give to a dentist, let's say, that knows in five years they're gone?

Jas Banga:

So in terms of the lease agreement, if a doctor's evaluating transitioning within the next five years, there's a number of items that need to be addressed within the lease agreement, but two in particular, the term of the lease, as well as the assignment and subletting provision. So in terms of how many years are required on the lease agreement. If a doctor has a five-year plan, wonderful, but in order for a buyer to obtain financing and the lender to approve of financing, the banks need to see a runway of five additional years.

Jas Banga:

So, great, if you have a five-year plan and you have five years of term on your lease agreement, we also need to take on an additional five-year block to meet the bank's requirements, because in order for the banks to finance an acquisition, let's say $500,000, they typically align the term of the loan over the term of the lease. So we need to be cognizant of how long our career trajectory is, as well as put on some runway at the back of the lease to fulfill the requirements of the bank.

Jas Banga:

And it's interesting that you mentioned that because it's a major issue I deal with every single day when I speak with dentists, because they'll have a two, three-year plan and [inaudible 00:05:29] two, three years after my lease, my lease will expire, but ultimately we need to get consent of the landlord, which cannot unreasonably withheld or delayed, but in most lease agreements under the assignment provision, there is no reference to what is reasonable and what is unreasonable. And very often, landlords will leverage their control over consent to derive some value. They realize that a large transaction is about to occur.

Jas Banga:

And what we're seeing more often than not is the landlord saying, "Great. I will approve the assignment, but rent is increasing by 20% for the prospective buyer." And that throws off the entire purchase and sale agreement. Or we'll see the landlord say, "Great, wonderful. You're selling your business for 500K. I need to know if I'm going to be fully apprised of all details of that transaction, who the party is, what their financials are." And I'll often see in lease agreements that the net worth of the buyer is part of the conditions.

Jas Banga:

So you can imagine as a doctor that's 60, 65, selling their practice to a two, three year out associate, those networks do not align. And then the landlord will leverage that lack or disparity between net worth and say, "You know what? Wonderful doctor, I'm happy to provide consent, but I want 20% of the sale proceeds." Imagine that, end of your career, the landlord is asking for 20% of the practice that you built from your blood, sweat, and tears, and have grown and are ultimately looking to sell, and in order to do that, the landlord's asking for a big number.

Alan Berry:

And that's really happened? People have actually had to give away 20% of their business to their landlord?

Jas Banga:

We've seen instances where the landlord has asked for 50% of proceeds that sell.

Alan Berry:

50%. That's crazy. That's like divorce numbers. Wow. Before I started recording today, Jas, you said something about, "Dentists are easy prey." And that just struck me. Will you explain what you mean by, "Dentists are easy prey?"

Jas Banga:

So we see it every day where doctors had worked with a commercial broker or a non-dental lease lawyer and a non-dental real estate lawyer, with very little experience in understanding the nuances of the business of dentistry. So just to start with, dentists are very easy prey and landlords are aware of that. And the reason why they're easy prey is they're built into the space. There's plumbing, electrical, conduit, build-out, and as you can imagine today, we're seeing build outs at about $150 a square foot. Typically, if a doctor is ever planning to relocate, or if you're a new start process, what we'll often see is anywhere from six to 12 months to pick up and move the dental practice. And that's why dentists are easy prey.

Jas Banga:

Landlords are aware of that and what most landlords will do on renewals, for example, so the doctor signed a 10 year lease, there's two five-year options and they're looking to express their first option. What I did when I worked on the other end of the stick as a property manager was I was taught to delay the process with renegotiating renewals for our dental tenants for as long as possible. So I would avoid calls, I would avoid emails until the doctor was in that last six month window, because we knew on the landlord side that the doctor could not pick up and move his practice.

Jas Banga:

So we essentially could provide them a take it or leave it deal. "Doctor, wonderful. Your lease is coming up for expiration. You're four months away from renewal. Here's our proposal. Rent's going up by 20%. And if you don't agree to this, then we'll terminate your lease agreement." And what option does the tenant have? What option? The dentist has very little recourse.

Jas Banga:

Interestingly, I've been working with a doctor out in Houston, Texas. She had a purchase and sale agreement in place. And typically, what happens is the practice gets appraised, there's a valuation put on top of the practice, and the doctor agrees through a purchase and sale agreement as to the price. So in this instance, there was an $800,000 transaction occurring, but in order for that transaction to occur, there needs to be a transfer of the lease agreement from one party to the next.

Jas Banga:

So unbeknownst to the doctor that we're working with after the fact, while she was going through that assignment process, the broker that was representing her interests, or who she believed was representing her interests, had cleverly in size six font added a provision into the lease agreement that allowed the landlord to demolish the building.

Jas Banga:

So now, the doctor takes on this lease, it's a 10 year lease, two years into owning the practice, the landlord exercised the redevelopment laws. So now, in one year's time, she has to vacate the premise. So it's a very sad story and I always encourage doctors, regardless of any document that your landlord puts in front of you, make sure that you have a professional review it for you. In fact, I would recommend having a dental-specific attorney, negotiator, or consultant that is aware of the nature of the business of dentistry, because one verbiage change, one sentence in any lease agreement can materially change your risk and liability.

Alan Berry:

I'm curious, what's the questions that dentists should be asking themselves when looking to lease? I mean, besides the fact that I agree with you, they really should have a professional on their side, but let's say for some reason they're being stubborn and decided not to go with a professional to help them through the lease. What would be the top things you would tell them to look at?

Jas Banga:

I always recommend having as much long-term continuity on the lease agreement as possible, whether you're doing a new build or an acquisition, it's a significant investment into this space. So we want as much predictable term and options on the lease agreement. So I speak with doctors, I was speaking with one the other day that said, "Oh, I want to sign a three-year lease." And then I asked her, "Hey, has anyone provided you any info or guidance into how much it's going to cost you to build?" And she goes, "No, but I want to have flexibility to pick up and move when I want." And that's not the case with dentists. You're built into the space. You're married to this space for many years. So term and options are critical.

Jas Banga:

And then going into the agreement, most dentists, I would say about 85% of dentists sign their lease agreements with their personal name. And what that effectively means is, if there's an event of dispute, default on the lease agreement, your personal and professional assets are one and the same, the landlord can come after both. And it becomes that much more critical as we move further into our career to separate professional from personal assets.

Jas Banga:

And then I would also say a key element to take a look at is the inducements. Many landlords approach you and entice you with a significant tenant improvement allowance. So what that means is the landlord says, "Great. I'm happy to do a 10 year lease. Rental rates are about 20 bucks a square foot, but you know what? Let's make it $25 a square foot, but I'm going to give you $30 per square foot to help you build out your dental practice."

Jas Banga:

Now, what most doctors think is, "Hey, wonderful. The landlord's giving me some free money. They're going to build me my dental space." And it's a mirage. The reality is, nothing is free. It's built into your rental rates and landlords design lease agreements with allowances so that in year seven, they break even. And then every year following that, they're profiting off of that initial loan that they provided you vis-a-vis the allowance. So you can imagine what the doctor that has a 30 year career span, you're paying over market value for 23 years of your tenancy by agreeing to this significant allowance.

Alan Berry:

Is there something that you see dentists typically getting trapped in overpaying? Is there one common thing that you always see?

Jas Banga:

There's a number of things that I see that are traps within the lease agreement. The number one issue I typically see is on the transfer and sale of the practice. Through the assignment process, A, you have to cover all costs of legal fees when proposing a prospective assignment or transfer the lease agreement. B, we'll often see the landlord, as I mentioned earlier, leverage their control over consent to get remunerated in some form or fashion, whether that means an increase in rent or a percentage of the sale proceeds. It's typically where we'll often find issues is when the doctor's exiting.

Jas Banga:

And the landlord knows that in order for the doctor to drive full value from the sale of their business, they need to transfer the lease. And the landlord governs that whole transaction. And that's where the dollar signs and the green eyes pop open and landlords will often leverage their control to get some value. So that's one area that I often see landlords getting, or tenants rather, getting trapped.

Jas Banga:

But also on additionals. So most lease agreements and, Alan, this is a big complex, I'm diving a little bit deep, but in terms of how leases are structured, there's two types of leases. There's a gross lease and a net lease. And a gross lease is, you have 2000 square feet, you're paying $5,000 a month, and it covers everything, all taxes, maintenance, insurance, and all operational costs. Now, in the last 10 years, we've seen a significant shift to net leases where you pay your base rent of $5,000, plus all additionals, taxes, maintenance, and insurance, TMI. And on the maintenance side, you'll probably hear many doctors discuss this, say, "Hey, my CAM costs, my common area maintenance costs, are accelerating significantly. They just keep going up and up and up and I have no idea what the landlord is doing. In fact, the property isn't even very well taken care of."

Jas Banga:

Because base rents are defined in the lease agreement, they're finite in the lease agreement, we know what they are. Landlords will leverage the flexibility of overcharging dentists on common area maintenance and what we'll often see at the end of the year, there's supposed to be a reconciliation and most dentists are getting a one to two page document saying, "Hey, this is how much we spent on common area maintenance, on taxes, on insurance." It's not sufficient. In order to avoid the trap, in every lease we look to negotiate a common area maintenance detailed reconciliation statement. So you're not just getting a one to two page document, you're getting a 10, 20, 30 page document that references each and every day the operational costs of the building to ensure that the landlord is reasonable in passing those costs over to you.

Jas Banga:

But in conjunction with the common area maintenance statement, we also need to incorporate a right to audit, the ability for your CPA or advisor to validate the landlord's books. How often we'll see landlords collude with a landscaping group, a snow removal group, or a paint, drywall, or a contractor and overcharge the tenant and profit off of the arrangement is substantial. So in order to circumvent that issue, we'd like to have CAM statements as well as the right to audit those statements.

Alan Berry:

So what I think I hear you saying is, you're protecting the dentist from the landlord's brother-in-law also owning a snow removal company and just overcharging for that service, and then both of them kind of taking off the top, right?

Jas Banga:

Exactly. I was working on a case in Michigan recently where the doctor was expected to pay $30,000 in snow removal.

Alan Berry:

Oh, now wait a minute, $30,000?

Jas Banga:

$30,000. And he had no visibility to who the contractor was. He noted that there was only four or five instances of snow removal. And diving deeper, he found out it was in fact a brother-in-law of the landlords and they were splitting profits.

Alan Berry:

Walk me through your guys's process a little bit. So let's say that we have some listeners that are thinking, "You know what, I do need a professional to look at this." And I don't know if you can give this information out, but just walk me through the process of what Cirrus does and maybe give me a ballpark of what this would cost someone to do this and what their first steps would be to getting you involved in their project.

Jas Banga:

Yeah. So obviously, every case is unique, depending on where you are in your career, but typically the first step, let's say for a new start or a new dentist is my team doing the due diligence. So one thing that we offer in partnership with Four Quadrants and many of our other corporate partnerships is a complementary lease review. It is the ability for us to review the lease agreement or review your LOI, letter of intent, or do a market analysis of the area that you're looking at and set up a consultation.

Jas Banga:

So through our partnership with Four Quadrants, we offer that $1,500 service completely free. And what that entails is a complete analysis of the document, not just page one, like many brokers will take a look at, not just the financials, but going through the 40, 50 pages that are focused on all the nonfinancial. Because where I sit and having spoken with many doctors, it's the legal components of the lease agreements that often get overlooked.

Jas Banga:

So we'll uncover any of the risks, the traps, any of the issues or concerns or potential risk and traps within the lease agreement. We'll set up a one-hour call with the doctor. My legal and leasing team spend a few hours reviewing the document, preparing a market perspective. So we evaluate the rent rates, we compare it to the marketplace. What is the market indicating? Are you overpaying? Are you underpaying? Or are you currently at fair market value?

Jas Banga:

Once we reviewed the agreement, we'll set up a one hour consultation to go through the document with the doctor. And we're very candid in our approach. If the lease is well designed, we mention, it's a good leads. There's a few tweaks and changes here that are required. But from my experience, most lease agreements are landlord favored and riddled with issues.

Jas Banga:

And then, if that is the case after the consultation, it's an appropriate fit for the doctor to work with us, we do have a flat fee, but that fee really depends on your unique circumstance. So it is a range of costs for the services, really a function of what's involved in your lease agreement and the work involved. But for a renewal dentist, which I would say is our bread and butter of what we typically work with, where the doctor initially works with the broker, an attorney, they've been in this lease agreement, they uncover that they've had many issues, they reach out to our group, we recommend starting that process 24 months before the lease expires.

Alan Berry:

You give them a free consultation, you dive down, you do a deep dive on the books, but, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but at the end of that consultation, you must be holding some stuff behind the curtain, right? Because you're not going to tell them everything, because otherwise they'll just say, "Okay, thanks for the free information," and then go do it. Or what am I missing?

Jas Banga:

I'm pretty open with my discussions with doctors. And if we find six to 12 or more issues within the lease agreement, it's really a function of, "Do you need a professional, someone who really understands the process of negotiating?" Because when many doctors think of negotiating, they think of just financials. It's more than just financial. In addition, it's not just about submitting a proposal to the landlord and saying, "Here, this is our proposed changes. Do you agree to it?"

Jas Banga:

When we're involved in a traditional renewal, we're looking at about 50 to 60 hours of back and forth, of preparing, amending, reviewing, and ensuring that the lease agreement gets properly structured before the doctor's comfortable with signing.

Jas Banga:

So, I'm pretty candid, as I mentioned, with providing feedback on the lease agreement, and most doctors realize that A, their opportunity cost of working in the practice far exceeds having to focus on negotiating the lease agreement, because most property managers are just like a business owner, like the dentist, they operate 09:00 to 05:00. So unless the doctor's willing to forgo chair time and working with patients, it's problematic for them to typically take this on on their own.

Alan Berry:

Even if you guys lay out the game plan to a prospective dentist, there's still a lot of work to be done and most of that work is done in the negotiating part. And you really need a pro on your side to do that negotiation, because you're trying to run a dental practice, and this is not your area of expertise. Is that pretty fair to say?

Jas Banga:

Absolutely. That's one of the major components and there's legal language involved. So there needs to be some form of an attorney or legal representative involved in terms of amending and drafting out the appropriate language changes in the lease agreement. And then having creative alternatives. With any negotiation, there's ideal position, there's mid-tier position, and worst case, and then 50 iterations in between.

Alan Berry:

Yeah, I think it's always best to have someone outside of yourself negotiating on whatever it is because your emotions are what will make you make mistakes. But when you have an outside party that isn't emotively involved, I just think you come to a better conclusion.

Jas Banga:

I always mention to doctors, "Be proactive." Start the process early, 24 months before expiration, or before you sign the document, ensure that you're aware of all the terms and conditions of the lease agreement. For example, in every lease agreement, there's a use provision and the use provision indicates the type of operations or services you can render in your space. Most leases that I review, I would say about 90% of those leases for a general dentist, state the uses for the business of dentistry or the practice of dentistry.

Jas Banga:

And we've ran into a number of issues all across the country where a specialist negotiates an exclusivity over their sub-specialty. So for example, I'm working on a case in the Carolinas where the doctor is 65 years old, looking to retire, planning for his exit. And if you've ever worked on an appraisal, the appraisal is typically based on the last three years of tax statements. So it's hypercritical for doctors, even as they're exiting the business of dentistry, to continue to ramp up revenue and production because their final retirement plan and the revenues derived from the practice is all handed on the last three years of revenues. So the purchase price and the sale price is based on what they produce in the last few years.

Jas Banga:

So the doctor that I'm working with in the Carolinas, he has a general dental use provision. And what occurred was an orthodontist came in and negotiated, had a professional negotiator cleverly negotiate an exclusivity over ortho and ortho-related services. Now to the landlord, he sees two different completely uses, but we as dental professionals, we understand that general dentistry is all-encompassing. You're allowed to do a wide variety of services.

Jas Banga:

So what happened was, once the orthodontist built out his practice, opened his doors for business, he sent out a cease and desist order to the general dentist stating that they were no longer allowed to provide any ortho and ortho-related work. So all of a sudden, 30% of revenue attributed to Invisalign was wiped out overnight.

Alan Berry:

All right, Jas, we're running close to being out of time here, so give me another number one. What's the biggest, the biggest thing that you see in most of your leases that come across your desk that are problematic for dentist?

Jas Banga:

The major issue that I often find in lease agreements, major traps and pitfalls occur on the sale. And in most lease agreements that I review, 95% of the lease agreements I review, how they provision referred to as, on our end, continuous liability, whereby the seller will be jointly liable with the buyer.

Jas Banga:

So, wonderful. You're a 60 year old doctor, you have an associate that's been working for you for two or three years. You have a great relationship. Your patients are comfortable with the doctor. And when you're ready to exit, you plan on selling the business to your associate. You come to a agreement on purchase sale price, formalize that arrangement, and it's contingent on the transfer of lease. Wonderful. You approach the landlord and in accordance to the lease agreement, the exiting doctor will be liable for the incoming doctor.

Jas Banga:

And now it goes back and we go full circle to the structure of the lease. So in order for the buyer of the business to obtain financing, the banks want to see a minimum of five, and in some cases, 10 years of term. So effectively, the selling doctor will remain accountable to the lease agreement for an additional five to 10 years after they've retired.

Jas Banga:

So I'm working on a few cases right now, but there's one in particular that I'd like to bring up. I have a doctor in Seattle, he sold his practice to his associate. Two years into running the business, the associate who is now the practice owner, made some very poor business decisions. And within three years went in default of the lease agreement, went bankrupt, and the selling doctor had a personal guarantee where they were personally attached to the lease. Since the landlord was not able to recuperate damages from the current doctor, they went after the seller. And in accordance with the lease, it was for accelerated rent, $328,000 in unpaid rent for the remainder of the term, the landlord was asking from the doctor who had then exited the space and was now enjoying retirement.

Alan Berry:

That's just horrible. That would just be... You're sitting on the beach and all of a sudden you get this email. Ah, did he have to pay it?

Jas Banga:

Essentially, the doctor had to pay... The retired doctor paid one year penalty on the lease, because we were able to find another dentist to take over the space and take over lease agreement, but in some areas where there's less demand for dental spaces, this is a major issue if we cannot find another doctor to take over the lease.

Alan Berry:

Wow. That should put the scare into everyone to think that you're into the retirement world, and yet you still owe 300K because of something that you signed a few years back. That would be a definite horror story. Tell me this, go ahead.

Jas Banga:

Alan, what's interesting on that is, what you design into the lease agreement early in your career will impact your tenancy for the entire duration of your lease, unless you renegotiate at the renewals. If you, like most doctors who are really excited about entering a private practice, was focused on the financials, and overlooked many of the legal, certainly at the renewal is when you need to address the issues.

Jas Banga:

And what we always recommend is, be proactive, think longterm. We know in private practice, typically you'll be in your space for 30 years. And once you've built the practice, most dentists are staying there. Over 70% of dentists are staying in the original location where they started their practice career. So we need to design the end game, even when we're starting the business today. Be proactive and look at the future and design it so that when you are ready to sell, all your ducks are in their right row and it's a clean, smooth transition.

Alan Berry:

Yeah. No, I hear you. That's almost an impossible task to ask of a dentist without a company like yours, to ask them to look 25, 30 years ahead and make sure that the lease represents that. I don't know how else an individual would be able to do that on their own. It would have to border on impossible, wouldn't it?

Jas Banga:

Yeah. A lot of it has to do with experience. Just having experience in dealing with dental-specific leases. We've been doing this for a little over 25 years now at Cirrus. We were actually founded by a group of dentists back in 1994. Given the gap in commercial real estate in the business of dentistry, we're one of the unique firms that aren't brokers, that represent dentist, have an in-house legal team, an in-house leasing team, as well as a full team of consultants.

Jas Banga:

So, one of the goals and objectives that I have is to educate our doctors. So doing things like this podcast, I run a ton of webinars. We also run a ton of seminars and make keynote speakers at many of the large conventions and conferences, because many doctors aren't aware of this and how impactful the lease agreement is on their tenancy, their exit plan, the relationship with the landlord, and their liability that they take on. So it's hypercritical that we address these matters and are fully apprised of all the details of the lease agreements, its impact on your tenancy, which ultimately results in the impact of the success of your practice.

Alan Berry:

You've given me so much information, so much good information. I think that after listening to you speak on all these issues, it's so much clearer to me of my first question of, why would I pay someone to negotiate a lease? It's very clear that it'd be like going to court without a lawyer. It would be silly, unless your background is in real estate leasing negotiations, you'd be a fool not to hire a company to do this. I thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it, Jas.

Jas Banga:

Thank you, Alan. I appreciate your time as well. And just as a quick follow-up, as part of joining the podcast today, my email is jbanga@cirrusconsultinggroup.com, J-B-A-N-G-A@cirrusconsultinggroup.com. For any listeners that are tuned into today's podcast, if you email me with the #FourQuadrants, I'll be able to provide you with the complimentary lease review or lease consultation. Best if you're 24 months from expiration to start the process, to start evaluating the lease.

Jas Banga:

And I'd be happy to provide that to listeners today and do reach out to me, we have a ton of resources online through our website, cirrusconsultinggroup.com, and I'd be delighted to share some of the knowledge that I've learned over the many years of working on the landlord side, as well as on the tenant side, to ensure that you, as a dentist, are protected and aware of all of the relationships involved based on the lease. Happy to provide that service, and Alan, I do thank you again for having me here today and look forward to joining you on another one.

Announcer:

That's all the time we have today. Thank you to our guests for their insight and for sharing some really great information. And thank you to you, the listener for tuning in. The Millionaire Dentist Podcast is brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. To see if they might be a good fit for you and your practice, go on over to fourquadrantsadvisory.com and see why year after year, they retain over 95% of their clients. Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next time.