The Tax Basis Trap: What Dentists Don’t Know Could Cost Them

Announcer:
Hello, everyone, welcome to The Millionaire Dentist Podcast, brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. On this podcast, we break down the world of dentistry finances and business practices to help you become the millionaire dentist you deserve to be. Please be advised, we do speak with an honest tongue and may not be safe for work.

Casey Hiers:
Hello, and welcome. This is Casey Hiers back at The Millionaire Dentist Podcast, in studio with cohost, Jarrod Bridgeman.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Casey, how are you?

Casey Hiers:
Doing great.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Are you feeling refreshed from your recent trip?

Casey Hiers:
Refreshed? Well, Boston was great.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Boston.

Casey Hiers:
Yankee Dental Congress, it's a great national meeting.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Those in the Northeast really enjoy it. But yeah, it cut my weekend a little short.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
I don't know, refreshed?

Jarrod Bridgeman:
But you're here.

Casey Hiers:
I feel strong.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah, you look strong.

Casey Hiers:
Hey, we had a sold out room and a lot of folks that were excited to hear about the business side of dentistry for a couple hours.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's great, that's great.

Casey Hiers:
They didn't just leave after the first-

Jarrod Bridgeman:
10 minutes?

Casey Hiers:
Part.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah. That's a testament to your ability to entertain. Casey, you came back, you're in the room and I bombarded you with we have a special guest in here today. You've heard him on here before, he is a CPA and he's a real smart fella, Kevin Rhoton. He is here.

Kevin Rhoton:
Hello.

Casey Hiers:
He also has his MBA, don't sell him short.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Oh, and MBA!

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Dang.

Casey Hiers:
And he's a BBQ master as well.

Kevin Rhoton:
Self-proclaimed, I guess.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Self-proclaimed. I've had some, it's fantastic.

Casey Hiers:
Kevin is fueled on Mountain Dew and meat.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
This morning, his Mountain Dew was not in the refrigerator, Jarrod.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Someone took it over the weekend.

Casey Hiers:
Shockingly, he admitted it. Jarrod Bridgeman-

Jarrod Bridgeman:
It was me.

Casey Hiers:
Stole Kevin's Mountain Dew.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Listen, I was here at 5:00 on a Sunday, putting in the hours, helping everyone out here and I was parched.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Kevin, audible groan on a Monday.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes. But guess who came through for me? Mr. Casey himself.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah, a big old fountain pop.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah, he did.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Nice.

Casey Hiers:
Well, I knew what would happening if Kevin didn't get his Mountain Dew.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
You've seen Lou Ferrigno in The Hulk, right? Very similar.

Casey Hiers:
That's about right. I ran out and got him his go juice.

Kevin Rhoton:
I appreciate that.

Casey Hiers:
He's going to join us today.

Kevin Rhoton:
Here we are.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Kevin, you wanted to come and chat with us about tax basis.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Am I saying that right?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Tax.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes, tax basis.

Casey Hiers:
B-A-S-I-S, not B-A-S-E-S.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Not like baseball bases.

Casey Hiers:
Basis.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Basis.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
See how smart you are? We don't even know how to spell it.

Kevin Rhoton:
Wow.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah, dude. Kevin, can you walk me through ... I don't even know what that means. I'm not going to lie.

Kevin Rhoton:
Sure.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Kevin Rhoton:
Okay.

Casey Hiers:
By the way, we've had a couple podcasts on this in general, but Jarrod and I both are ...

Jarrod Bridgeman:
I don't retain information well.

Casey Hiers:
We need to hear it again. When I'm out amongst practice owners, I speak on language. But if tax basis gets brought up, it's as if I'm speaking another language. I think our listeners would probably enjoy hearing a little bit more about it.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's right.

Casey Hiers:
Dumb it down.

Kevin Rhoton:
Okay.

Casey Hiers:
For us dumb guys.

Kevin Rhoton:
Absolutely. What I'll mostly be talking about today is S corporation stockholder basis. There's different types of basis, but we like to see our practice owners have an S corp type of entity for their practice.

Casey Hiers:
Is S corp short for S corporation?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
Oh, man.

Kevin Rhoton:
It is.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Oh, nicely done.

Casey Hiers:
Jarrod, I'm one for one.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Ah, man.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. Because there's so many tax advantages to an S corp, the pass through of income to the individual level so you bypass that double taxation that C corps have. Then, you also bypass the self-employment tax on earnings that sole props have, or sole proprietorships, schedule Cs, things like this.

Casey Hiers:
Slow down, Professor. Actually, in the class at the Yankee Dental that we did, entity structure came up on some different questions. In the past, perhaps other entity structures were used, or there were reasons or advantages to, but in the last couple years, five years, eight years, 10 years. I'm just curious, S corps or S corporations tend to have the most flexibility, ability to reduce tax liability, and save, and have access to your funds, and really adds consistency, but is there a timeline where that changed?
Because I've had some more seasoned people, and they almost asked, "When did this happen?" I know that in the past, decades ago, potentially there was some other entity structures because some people, this is brand new news. Others will say, "I've thought about that, or I've read about that, or I was told about that, but my CPA doesn't want to make the change."

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. The actual S corp has been around for quite a while, but it probably in the last 20, 25 years, has really gained momentum in how people structure their entities. Because just like you said, it has so many benefits without the disadvantages of those other types. It really has grown in momentum.

Casey Hiers:
20, 25 years sounds like so long.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
But yet, I remember where I was at when 2000 hit.

Kevin Rhoton:
We're getting close to where 25 years ago was still 2000.

Casey Hiers:
Yikes.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah, that's rough.

Casey Hiers:
But yeah, even from an entity structure though, there are some practices out there that they're not even aware that an S corporation, or an S corp, perhaps might be the best for them.

Kevin Rhoton:
Correct, yeah. Yeah, we've seen quite a few prospects come in that are not S corps. We point out and show, "Here's where those disadvantages, here's where it's hurting you."
But with that S corp election, you get into needing to keep track of your tax basis, going back to what Jarrod was mentioning. That tax basis is important to track on an annual basis.

Casey Hiers:
Hold on, hold on. Tax basis on an annual basis. What are you doing to us? What are you doing to us?

Kevin Rhoton:
Tax basis is important to keep track of.

Casey Hiers:
Annually?

Kevin Rhoton:
Annually.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
On an annual basis?

Kevin Rhoton:
A lot of practice owners, and I think maybe even you guys included, when it comes to basis, we're like "Huh? What is that?"

Casey Hiers:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Correct.

Kevin Rhoton:
Think of it like the equity that you have in your house, or in this case, the equity that you have in your practice. You really can't, shouldn't go below zero on your equity. You build equity. Or think of it like a checking account, where you increase your checking account with deposits, and it goes down with withdrawals.

Casey Hiers:
I've always heard of people talk about, "Oh, I got upside down on my car loan. I bought this really cool car, and I paid 80,000 for it, and then I want to get rid of it. I didn't pay cash, so I owe 60 but it's only worth 40." Then, in this example, is that a poor man's example of what basis is?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. In a way, that can help you with visualize what we're talking about. You don't want to get "upside down" in basis.

Casey Hiers:
How do people do that?

Kevin Rhoton:
By having more losses than they have gains. When their income is so low and they pull money out through distributions. When they have multiple years of losses. When they don't plan right for improvements, equipment purchases, things like that.

Casey Hiers:
So great dentists and specialists who have a hodge-podge team doing this can potentially get in trouble with basis?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah. The ones I recall seeing or hearing about, as you go through these and we'll talk in real life with people as we're vetting them, some of the big operations, big production, big collections, maybe a couple associate ... Some big operations sometimes, with a lot of money moving in and out everywhere and all over the place, when you distill it down, they have basis issues.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Which fascinates me because it's like a house of cards. These larger operations have less basis. I'm always curious as to why, I don't know. But it can happen to anybody.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah, anyone. Yeah, we've been many where their net income might be half-a-million dollars. Well, either through Section 179, expenses, or just taking money out, maybe taking too much money out ... Even though your gross is 1.5 million, you're netting 500,000, 400,000. If you're taking $300, $400,000 out of the practice, then you're still left with zero basis. That can hurt when there's these large expenditures, actually being able to take advantage.

Casey Hiers:
I think that's a good Cliff Notes version of basis, I think. I've got a lot of questions. But what are a couple of the highlights that you want our audience members to hear about basis? About the importance of it or things to take not of?

Kevin Rhoton:
If I can, again going back to that checking account, where when you start your business, there's maybe an initial influx of cash that you put in. That's your initial deposit, that's your initial basis. Then, year one, you make $100,000. Now, your basis is at $100,000. You take out $50,000 in distributions, that's a withdrawal. Now, you're at $50,000 in basis. It's important to keep track of that, again for-

Casey Hiers:
It's important for your accounting team to keep track of that, yeah.

Kevin Rhoton:
That's exactly right. Because when your scanner goes out, or any type of piece of equipment, "Hey, I need to replace this." It's $100,000. Well, you can't take that expense right away and it hurts with taxes.
One other major thing with basis is that can limit your distributions that you can pull out of the practice. Which, distributions, think of as non-taxable withdrawals. It's very important that you don't go above because distributions, in and of themselves, should be tax-free if you plan it right, if you have a good advisor to help you with planning that out. Then, those distributions should be tax-free. If you get into basis issues, where that goes to zero and you have carry forward losses, you can't take those losses, and then you start taking money out, then those can become taxable. Anywhere from 15% or up. You're paying unneeded taxes, 15% tax, on something that should be tax-free, because of poor planning, poor tracking of basis.

Casey Hiers:
So many practice owners that we talk to, not only do they not understand maybe what basis is, but they don't know if it's an issue for them or not. Some of these practice owners who are out there running and gunning, and trying to make the best decisions they can, and they got their college buddy maybe as their tax planner. They're a nice person, and they do a nice transaction of filing taxes. When does a practice owner get headwinds? Obviously, 200,000 dentists in the country, we're not vetting all of them. We'd tell them. But, when does this come up when they're like, "Oh, I've got a basis issue, and it's causing this problem and a thorn in my side." What's a couple common examples when it comes to ...
It seems like, a lot of people we talk to, they've had basis issues for years. Then, when we talk about it, they have no idea what we're talking about. Which again, their standard of care for accounting is poor. But, when does it rear its ugly head for the common practice owner, who's just crushing dentistry but not crushing accounting?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. A lot of times it can be when it's time to replace equipment. They'll get $100,000 piece of equipment, and then they're still wondering why their taxes are so high.

Casey Hiers:
Ironically, they'll do that to lower their taxes. Then, they go do that.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.

Casey Hiers:
And they didn't have any room to do it, nobody told them.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Buying equipment to lower taxes, unless you actually need it, is not a great tax strategy.

Kevin Rhoton:
Right.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Correct.

Kevin Rhoton:
Boy, hearing those reps come after you, "Oh, get this Section 179 deduction," when you might not even be eligible for it.

Casey Hiers:
I get on a few soapboxes when I present, and I may have yelled at the audience about, "Don't fall for this 179 crap. If you need something, awesome! Most of the time you don't. What are you doing?"
"Hey, I screwed up your taxes. Can you go buy a $90,000 truck?" That's basically what a lot of CPAs tell their people to do. I don't really need a truck. "No, you need to go buy it." Well, you're the professional. Okay.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Then when I'm like, "No, that's terrible tax planning," it's like a light bulb goes off. I digress. Basis.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Don't get me wrong, it is fun to have nice new gifts, and presents, and toys for yourself.

Casey Hiers:
Oh, yeah. That's a whole nother-

Jarrod Bridgeman:
I have a wishlist.

Casey Hiers:
That's a whole nother podcast right there. It's called feasting. When you succeed and do well, you have to enjoy it. There's something to be said for that.
Okay, so they go buy a piece of equipment and they did not get the tax benefit that they thought they would get. Boom, basis.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Okay.

Kevin Rhoton:
Also, again I hit on distributions, a lot of times they'll get capital gains tax that shows up on their tax return.

Casey Hiers:
Months later.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Kevin Rhoton:
Come April, here's a tax bill.

Casey Hiers:
Yikes.

Kevin Rhoton:
Like I said, 15% or more on something that should not be taxable. Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
We're not talking pennies here, either.

Kevin Rhoton:
No. $1500, thousands of dollars.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Right.

Kevin Rhoton:
Or more.

Casey Hiers:
Let's say, somebody just, whatever. They don't care. They keep taking distributions and getting crushed on that side of it. They buy something to ... How long can that keep going? When do the chickens come home to roost in a way that's even more dramatic than this already is, would be?

Kevin Rhoton:
Ultimately-

Casey Hiers:
When you go to sell it?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. Every year, you're getting dinged with taxes, dinged with taxes, more taxes, additional taxes. Then, time to sell, it's like negative equity in your house.

Casey Hiers:
Surprise!

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. Oh, you don't get to make as big, as much. Or that taxable amount on your gain is huge.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Which means this whole time you probably weren't saving as much as you should have, because you're getting dinged on things you shouldn't have been dinged on. Then, you're hoping, "Oh, I'll just make it up when I sell my practice when I'm ready to retire." Then, come to find out, "I'm not getting as much as I hoped."

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
I want to hear more about basis. But, how would a practice owner listening, what's the way to verbalize, "Hey, local CPA, do I have basis issues?" What does that sound like?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Just like that?

Kevin Rhoton:
Well actually, you can look at your tax return. Because over the past couple of years, the IRS has required Form 7203 to be filed with a practice owner, or S corp shareholder's tax return. You can go to that form, look, it'll tell you what your basis is in your practice. If it's at zero, it'll also show you what losses, or expenses, or things are having to be carried forward until you grow that basis.

Casey Hiers:
Well, I know one of the things we try to focus on as we're educating at these different conferences and seminars, it's shareholder loan. To me, it's a one-on-one level piece of information I'm sharing. But I tell most folks, "Hey, email your CPA and just asked them do I have a shareholder loan on my balance sheet?" A lot of them are good. Hopefully, your CPA replies back, "No, what are you talking about?" But anything less than that, and you might want to worry.
The same thing, they could just ask their CPA. "Hey, how's my basis, or do I have any negative basis?" Is it as simple as that, to maybe start to educate oneself?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. I don't want to get too much into the weeds, but you technically can't have negative basis. But, the thought is okay, if I have very poor basis. Yes, ask your accountant, "Do I have enough basis? Am I having to pay taxes on my distributions capital gains taxes?"

Casey Hiers:
Oh, there it is. Good.

Kevin Rhoton:
"Do I have enough basis to take these distributions?"

Casey Hiers:
I don't want our listeners to send an uneducated email, so strike negative basis. But basically, say it again. If you want to find out if you have basis issues, am I paying capital gains on my distributions?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. Do I have adequate basis to take these distributions out of my practice?

Casey Hiers:
Nice.

Kevin Rhoton:
Or do I have adequate basis to take Section 179 deductions? I'm planning on buying a piece of equipment. How's my basis? Can I take the Section 179?

Casey Hiers:
It's unfortunate so many practice owners, they don't know their basis situation. They don't know if they have shareholder loans. Then, they're frustrated that they don't know. It's, "Well, you signed your taxes." Again, a lot of those things come up and people can get frustrated. But ultimately, a simple email, hopefully replied back to in one business day, you can at least feel a little better. Or if you're doing that here in the first quarter of 2024, at least you're having that conversation now instead of the end of this year, and being frustrated again with tax surprises or issues like that.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. All the time, our clients are emailing us, asking us, "I'm needing to replace this piece of equipment." Then, we'll talk with the planning team. Can they take this deduction? "Yeah, go ahead and do that," pay for it and that deduction goes on their taxes. Good to go.

Casey Hiers:
Getting that information before dropping six-figures on a piece of equipment's probably a good idea.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah. It's fascinating how many folks don't.

Kevin Rhoton:
I know we're already in 2024, but at the end of 2023, a lot of clients were asking, "Is it beneficial to go ahead and do it this year or wait until next year?" We'll take a look at-

Casey Hiers:
That's case-by-case, right?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah, case-by-case.

Casey Hiers:
So many people want a blanket answer on these things.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
And no, it's very specific to your situation.

Kevin Rhoton:
Exactly. We track basis for our clients. So we can come back and say, "Yeah, it's fine. Go ahead and do that now. Eh, let's wait until January, first quarter, that'd be better to do it then."

Casey Hiers:
Let's say 100 people end up ... I talk to hundreds and hundreds. But let's say, you look at 100 different taxes in a given year of people that are going through our process. How many would you say have basis issues and don't know about it?

Kevin Rhoton:
I would say probably half-

Casey Hiers:
Okay.

Kevin Rhoton:
Have basis issues.

Casey Hiers:
I was going to guess half, but that felt high.

Kevin Rhoton:
I would say half. And probably, most of them don't realize.

Casey Hiers:
I don't think I've heard one person go, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, no I'm aware of my basis issues and I've had those for X amount of time." Never heard that.

Kevin Rhoton:
No.

Casey Hiers:
Most of the time, with a shareholder loan, a few people, there's a unique reason why they might have it and they are aware. We can appreciate that.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
But yeah, from a shareholder loan, I would ask you, I think maybe 30, 35 percent have shareholder loans that aren't aware?

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
But maybe a coin flip, half have basis issues and most aren't aware.

Kevin Rhoton:
Right. I've even seen practice owners not realizing that they're paying capital gains taxes on those distributions. When we look at their taxes, I'll mention, "Hey, a couple years, or the past couple years, you've been paying taxes on these excess distributions." They'll be like, "What? I don't understand."

Casey Hiers:
So often, I hear, "Well, I feel this or I feel that." So when they feel they're not making as much money as they think they are or they should, this could be one of the reasons why.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah. They're unnecessarily paying taxes on distributions.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Really, it all ties in. The entity structure then allows you certain benefits and advantages. Then when you have this, then you also need to be aware of basis.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
But as long as somebody's tracking it, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Kevin Rhoton:
No.

Casey Hiers:
Right? If you have a CPA that's tracking it, aware of it. But half are just ... That's an interesting litmus test. We see such poor standard of care for practice owners in tax specifically.

Kevin Rhoton:
Exactly.

Casey Hiers:
This is one of those.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Well, how's your basis? "It's all jacked up after I emailed my guy."
"Well, there's your sign," as Jeff Foxworthy would say.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's Bill Engvall.

Casey Hiers:
Bill Engvall?

Jarrod Bridgeman:
"Here's you're sign."

Kevin Rhoton:
Oh, it was.

Casey Hiers:
Here's your sign.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Jeff Foxworthy was a redneck.

Casey Hiers:
Sorry.

Kevin Rhoton:
He was a redneck.

Casey Hiers:
Your taxes might be jacked up if you have basis problems. I think that's a stretch on my-

Jarrod Bridgeman:
That's a good one, I like it.

Casey Hiers:
Comedic attempt. But it's interesting. This topic is relatively unknown or unclear to a lot of practice owners. It's not necessarily complex, but it is challenging.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
So much of what we do here.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
When Kevin first mentioned doing a podcast on it, I just nodded and smiled. I was like, "That sounds great." It is great! But again, I was 100% for this.

Kevin Rhoton:
For us, looking at, all we really need is to look at your most recent tax return and your most recent set of financials.

Casey Hiers:
To you, this stuff jumps off the page. If they have a shareholder loan or basis issues, it just jumps off the page. It's hard for us to understand, number one, how a dentist would tolerate that for so long. But most of the time, they don't know it. Then, why in the world is an accounting firm-

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Allowing this to happen.

Casey Hiers:
Not better?

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yeah.

Casey Hiers:
Shareholder loan and basis should be some chip shot 101 stuff, but it's pretty mangled a lot of times.

Kevin Rhoton:
Yeah. Those are two main items with that S corp election that you need to make sure you're tracking, paying attention to because you're losing a lot of the benefits to being an S corp if you don't.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah. Know your basis. That was your softball.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Speaking of bases, Casey, we're going to be in San Antonio and Tampa very, very soon. Please go to fourquadrantsadvisory.com/events, you can check us out and learn more about shareholder loans, and basis, and what kind of moisturizer Casey uses. That'd be a good one.

Casey Hiers:
Cuticle cream.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Cuticle cream.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah. I think he meant it was covering some other bases, Kevin. You're like, "Wait, this doesn't make any sense."

Kevin Rhoton:
Oh, B-A-S-E-S.

Casey Hiers:
Yeah.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yes.

Casey Hiers:
He's covering some different bases.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Yes. It's like me-

Casey Hiers:
Other than basis.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
It stops with me in high school, I didn't even get to first base in high school. But now, I'm rounding home plate, you know what I mean?
Kevin, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you coming in and imparting your wisdom.

Kevin Rhoton:
Thank you.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
You're so smart. Handsome, too. Casey?

Casey Hiers:
Get that Mountain Dew back in that fridge. He'll be hunting you down.

Jarrod Bridgeman:
Tomorrow morning, I swear.

Announcer:
That's all the time we have today. Thank you to our guests for their insight and for sharing some really great information. And thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in. The Millionaire Dentist Podcast is brought to you by Four Quadrants Advisory. To see if they might be a good fit for you and your practice, go on over to fourquadrantsadvisory.com and see why, year after year, they retain over 95% of their clients. Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next time.